So, what are some of the top
skills that you think you learned
working for the CIA that you can then
apply to like real civilian life or the
world?
>> Yeah, there there are a lot of skills
that you learn at CIA, but the ones that
are the most applicable really have to
do with understanding and predicting and
directing human behavior. Mhm.
>> Human beings aren't really that
difficult to understand and they're not
that difficult to predict which makes
them not that difficult to control or
direct. And those were the most useful
skills that we learned at CIA.
>> Give me an example.
>> So, um, let me give a very funny
example, right? I do this exper I do
this often times with people. We are
conditioned to make certain body
movements just based off of what we
encounter, right? So, when we first met,
I extended my hand.
>> Yeah.
which even now, you know, I'm not trying
to shake your hand, but you still feel
the need to put your hand out.
>> Yeah,
>> that's predictable directing human
behavior, right? With personal bubbles,
I can literally move you. If we're
standing next to each other, I can
literally move you someplace where I
want you to go just by invading your
personal bubble. I know that if I
silently stand too close to you, you
will move away. And people do this all
the time. People do it in lines. They do
it in elevators. What CIA does is
teaches you how to do it intentionally
with operational utility to achieve a
certain outcome that you want. The same
thing is true when it comes to getting
someone to speak. You can get someone to
speak when they don't want to speak. You
can get someone to say things they don't
realize they're saying by using tools of
elicitation. Just as a real quick
example, I'm going to stop talking. Just
kind of count to yourself how many
seconds go by before you start to feel
like you need to say something because
the silence is so awkward.
I mean I mean yeah like I I would go I
wouldn't even that was awkward even
though I knew you were doing it on
purpose. It's still awkward.
>> It's still awkward. So that can force
you to get someone else to speak. I was
counting in my own head. It was about 2
and 1/2 seconds before I could see the
muscles on your face start to tighten
into a smile where you're like I could
tell you felt awkward.
>> Yeah.
>> This I mean these skills are
rudimentary. What we're going through
right now are just simple things that
that we can demonstrate right now. If I
started playing the national anthem, you
know what you would do?
>> What?
>> Stand up,
>> right? Cuz that's just what happens when
when you play the national anthem. When
we say when we say uh you know, put your
hand over your heart, people do. Take
off your hat. People do. You don't even
have to know why. If if someone just
walks up to a man and says, "Sir, can
you please remove your hat?" You know
what that man is going to do?
>> Remove his hat. Not even knowing why,
but just because we've been conditioned
to believe that there's some reason that
we should obey the direction of somebody
else. When a stranger tells us to do
something, we feel like we need to do
it. There are behaviors worldwide that
fit these kinds of predetermined
outcomes.
the the personal bubble in Europe is
very much smaller than the personal
bubble in the US, but they're still a
personal bubble. Different national
anthems in different countries, but they
still have the same reaction. People
still stand up, they stop talking, they
show a moment of silence.
They turn towards a flag. So, these are
the kind of um indicators that we're
taught to look for and in in very basic
terms because they go on and on. They go
through, you know, eye movements, facial
movements, how you touch your face.
There's all sorts of skills that you can
see whether or not you're driving a
behavior.
>> So that's so interesting to me. So like
what did you call it when you can move
someone like by doing that?
>> Directing human behavior.
>> No, no, but you're saying like putting
your hand out for example, knowing that
I was going to do the same thing. What
is that called? Yeah, we're we're
predicting and directing human behavior
because I I know that culturally this is
going to be meaningful to you.
>> So then do you have are you always like
a few steps ahead of anybody when you
want them to do something? Like are you
very you know it you you already know
what three what's going to happen? Like
do you have a plan? Like if you want
this person to do that thing, I need to
do A, B, and C to get them there.
>> When there's an outcome I'm trying to
achieve. Yes.
>> But let's play this game. So, like let's
say I was a girl that you wanted to go
out with or vice versa. What would be
your plan of attack? What would you do?
>> What's the situation? What's the
scenario? Where where are we at? How did
we meet? Kind of give Can you give me
some context?
>> Oh gosh. Um
>> yeah,
>> like if if this is let's just say it's
the real thing. Let's say you're the
girl that I want you to go I want you to
go out with me and we're in this
situation that we're in right now. Okay.
Right. Then I would I would most likely
tell you that when I was with Tom and
Lisa, Lisa's making a home-cooked
dinner. She's making dinner tonight and
I have to be back at their house at 6:00
and they wanted me to invite you to come
along cuz they haven't seen you in a
long time.
>> Okay, how would that make me Okay, so
I'd be like, "Oh, that's so nice.
>> Do you want to come with me?" Cuz Lisa
is making dinner and she asked you to be
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>> Okay, that's yes.
>> Do you want to come with me?
>> Sure.
>> And that's how I would get you to move
from this situation to come out with me.
>> But what if it wasn't the case? What if
it wasn't?
>> None of that is real.
Okay, fine. So, if it's not real and
then I say yes, then what happens?
>> So, if it's not So, I'm getting you to
come with me for something that isn't
real. Right.
>> Right. So, now when I come to pick you
up,
>> I'll be like, "Well, Tom, I just got a
phone call from Tom. They're not feeling
well.
>> Lisa canled,
>> but we're still together." And uh I know
that this is your neighborhood. Do you
have a good restaurant nearby that you
would recommend?
>> Right. So, you you you would do a setup.
>> Yeah. It's called a bait and switch.
>> A bait and switch. That's a nor that's a
good one. Okay. How would someone then
if someone wants to land a job, how
would they like get the person or
actually let me start? Let me let me
instead of giving you scenarios like I
do a lot of these things on like how to
be likable and how to be um how you know
how to how to develop your people
skills, let's say, right? How what would
be your number one way to get somebody
to like you? You want them to feel
comfortable around you, which really
means you want them to see themsel in
you. So, you want to mirror back to them
their behaviors, their language, their
vocabulary, their tonality, their
non-verbal and verbal communication,
their values. And
>> so, you're mirroring them.
>> Correct. That's what the term that we
use is mirroring as well. When you
mirror somebody, it's irresistible
subconsciously. They can't ignore the
fact that they feel comfortable around
you because you are acting like they are
acting.
>> So you you're so if I'm talking you'll
match my tone and your vocabulary, your
pacing, your volume.
>> So when Okay. So then how about this?
Okay. So what is it? Because I see I've
seen that you've spoken about this. What
is the difference between being
persuasive and being influential?
Persuasion and influence are two tools
that often get misunderstood or they get
uh they get misidentified as being one
and the same, right? Persuasion, as
we're taught at CIA, persuasion is
emotional, which means it can only
happen when you're with a person because
that's the only time that you can make
the emotional connection to bond with
them. So, when I say you have to be with
a person, that doesn't mean you
physically have to be with them. It
means that they have to be perceptive or
they have to perceive that they are with
you. So whenever you make a Tik Tok
video for example, whoever watches that
Tik Tok video to them in their
perception they are in that moment with
you even though you are not in that
moment with them. Make sense?
>> So persuasion has to happen in a moment
where there's a connection between two
people because persuasion is based in
emotion. Influence is what happens when
you are not connected to a person. You
are not physically there. You are not
represented. There's no perception of
your presence, but they're still
thinking about you. Something you said,
something you suggested, something you
did, something you recommended. That's
influence. So, persuasion is how you
start because you have a moment to build
someone's emotion, their emotional
connection, their emotional um momentum.
And then when you disappear and they
think of you anyways, that's influence.
And the reason both of these are so
powerful is because over time your
target, your target being the person who
watches your videos and the person who
thinks about you when they're not
watching your videos, the human brain
calculates, it tabulates every second
that it's thinking about you. Whether
it's with you in a video or whether it's
thinking about you on the toilet, your
brain can't differentiate the difference
between those two moments and the
moments when we're actually sitting
together. Your brain sees it as all the
same thing. So, for example, you've
known about me for multiple years. It
sounds like
>> two years probably. Yeah. You feel
like there's a relationship with me
that's different than the relationship I
feel with you because you've had so much
more exposure to me. And your brain has
literally tabulated
>> all of those moments and bits and bites
and seconds and and fractions of time.
It's put all that together to basically
say, "Hey, you know this guy. He's
familiar to you. You know what he's
about. You know what he believes in. You
guys are friends. You're going to get
along." You your brain is telling your
subconscious that already. Even though
there really isn't any proof that it's
true.
>> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.
Although I don't feel like we're
friends, but I do feel like a
familiarity that you wouldn't feel cuz
you've never seen me before. You have no
idea who I am. You're probably like,
"Who is this girl? I'm at like sitting
in her podcast studio." You know what I
mean? Like you just kind of can't. This
is like one of 50,000 podcast you've
probably done. Me, I'm like, "Oh my god,
I'm so excited to have him. I love his
content." Right. Well, it's and it's not
necessarily something that I want to um
I don't want to personally offend
obviously.
>> Trust me, you're not personally
offending me at all. It takes way more
than that, honey, to personally offend
me. But but this is the tool.
>> No, I know. That's what I'm saying. Like
that's that's I'm actually taking it as
like the information.
>> So, think about everybody who's read a
book, right? Your favorite author. You
feel like you know that person. You that
the whole idea of celebrity
>> is really just this concept on a massive
scale. That's why we feel like we have a
bond with our favorite actors or our
favorite actresses. It's why we feel
like we understand our favorite
journalists. It's why we feel like we
understand our favorite painters because
>> we've spent so much time
>> reflecting on them. That's influence
that they've been able to put out there.
Think about the influence of Vincent Van
Gogh or the influence of, you know, the
the uh any member of the Beatles.
>> I understand what you mean. I guess my
question was more about did your time at
the CIA teach you how to be more
persuasive? Like what are some of the
tactile like tactile or actionable
things that you cuz you now you have a
company, right? It's called Everyday Spy
where you take these things that you've
honed and learned and you apply them to
everyday civilian life for people.
Correct.
>> Correct. So, what are some of these
really important skills that could be
very helpful and beneficial for people?
>> Well, persuasion is a great place to
start. Um, because let's just assume
that somebody already knows that
influence and persuasion are not the
same thing. And let's go ahead and also
assume that they already knew that
persuasion was tied to emotion. So,
those are two big steps because the
average person doesn't really understand
that. But, let's just go ahead and start
there. So, how do you teach someone the
technical steps of persuasion
once they understand that persuasion is
based in emotion? Right? You have to
start teaching them how to identify
emotional levers in their target. So,
you're you are kind of my guinea pig
right now, right?
>> Mhm.
>> So, when I when I look at you, I don't
know what your emotional state is right
now. I don't know if you're angry, if
you're sad, if you're anxious, if you're
worried. I don't know what you value. I
don't know much about really anything
except that there's a newspaper or
there's a magazine on the wall that says
that that's by the Jewish Journal and
you made a comment earlier about being
Israeli. So that tells me that there's
probably a connection between you and
the Jewish faith or the Israeli
nationality or at least the Jewish
plight. So there's something there's
something there. From there, I can start
exploring topics that are likely to
trigger emotions. I can start talking
about uh anti-semitism. I can start
talking about support for the
Palestinian people. I can talk about
injustices that are happening in Gaza
right now. I can talk about injustices
that are happening in the UN when they
try to out uh Israeli leadership. I know
that you've you've already admitted that
you've had a meeting with leadership in
Israel. I could assume that that if
that's not Netanyahu, it's somebody else
close to Netanyahu's circle, which is a
chance for me to start talking about
Netanyahu's corruption charges and the
fact that his own people are turning
against him. These are likely to be
points that will trigger some kind of
emotional response. As long as I'm the
one talking though, I won't know what
emotions are being stirred up.
>> So, I need to make a statement,
>> kind of pry into an emotional topic, and
then wait for a response. That's the
only way I'm going to get the feedback
to understand what is actually pushing
levers and whether those are feelings of
anger or remorse or sadness or something
else.
>> Right? So, you're able to pick up clues
basically.
>> They're you have
>> well they're very overt clues but yeah
>> so to you they feel like they're overt
to the average person. They may not they
may not even think to pull topics from
previous conversation and topics from
around the room. Right? That's an
assessment tool.
>> Um I'm And that only works cuz I'm in
your space. If we were meeting at a
coffee shop down the street, I wouldn't
have these to pull from.
>> So how would you do it?
>> You'd have to pull it a different way.
>> How?
>> A lot of it ties back to how you ask
questions and the types of questions
that you ask, right? You there's two
types of questions. There's open-ended
questions and close-ended questions. If
you ask open-ended questions, those are
questions that don't have a simple
answer. So, how are you? That's a
close-ended question. Are you happy?
Close-ended question. Are you hot in
this room? Close-ended question. But,
you know, how did you feel when you woke
up this morning? That's a more
open-ended question,
>> right? Um, what made you choose this
coffee shop for us today? That's a more
open-ended question. These are questions
that will lead to more conversation.
>> And that is what gives you the
foundation to start probing. And then as
you start probing, you can start looking
for emotional responses. So, is that
something that you teach people how to
be more persuasive? Correct.
>> What's another thing that you teach a
lot of that people that come to you?
What's the number one thing that people
actually ask you to help them with?
>> People come to us because they are good
people who have been taken advantage of.
That's the vast majority of who comes to
us. I actually just got off a call
yesterday with a guy who built a $7
million business and was then forced out
of his own business by two partners that
he brought on 10 years ago because they
were struggling friends of his. And over
the over the last 10 years, they kind of
they they worked against him. They used
his his kindness and they used his um
faithfulness and they used his loyalty
kind of against him and they took his
business and now he's got $6,000 in the
bank and a family of four and nothing to
show for it. Um and he's like, "How did
I get to the and he's 50 years old and
he comes to me and he's like, I don't
know how I got here and I don't know how
to fix it." And of course he comes to me
because he's like, I think what I want
to do is run a public smear campaign
against them to try to get my company
back. And it's and then you have to have
that hard conversation where you explain
good people are going to be good people
their whole lives. Like you can't you
can't be good for 50 years and then
break bad and then turn into a bad guy.
M
>> so I had to explain to him like you're
you're better off starting all over
again because you know how to build a
company than trying to become a bad guy
and and coers these people into somehow
giving you back your business. It's
never going to work. And that is really
what we deal with. We deal the most with
very very wealthy people who have been
taken advantage of and who who
understand that they are either a poor
judge of character or they have some
sort of gap in their knowledge when it
comes to dealing with unscrupulous
people.
People who have been embezzled against,
people who have been cheated on, um
people who've been robbed by loved ones.
That's that's the vast majority of what
we really do see from from individuals
asking for our consulting. And then
you're teaching them exactly what
though, like if they come to you, not
that guy, but another guy, like how to
what
>> how to identify when you're being
misled, how to identify misinformation,
disinformation, how to
>> how do you identify misinformation?
>> It's all the same tools that we've been
talking about, right? You have to
understand how to assess, how to use
certain questioning types.
>> So you, like you said, it's not it's
like how you ask like the questions you
ask, how you ask them. I mean, for for
the purposes of a podcast interview,
that's pretty much as deep as I can go.
>> But with a client, I can actually go
through the specific strategies. Here is
a type of question that we can ask.
Here's seven varieties of that question.
Here are the seven different kinds of
responses you'll get from those seven
different kinds of questions. We can
give them a
>> get more deep depending on the scenario.
>> Correct? Because you have time, right?
The CIA teaches us there's only three
resources that matter. time, energy, and
money. That's it. Everything else out
there is an irrelevant resource. It it
bundles up into either time, energy, or
money. Just because you have money
doesn't mean you can make a change
because if you don't have enough energy
or enough time, the money doesn't help
you. You can have all the time in the
world and if you don't have enough
money, you can't affect the change,
>> right? So, you need to have all three
resources. So when I when I work with
clients, that's a lot of times where we
start from is, hey, these are the three
resources you have. Which of these
resources do you have in abundance,
which of these resources do you have the
least amount of? And oftentimes what we
find is people have either a great deal
of time and no money or a great deal of
money and very little time. That helps
us adjust how we will train them, right?
People who have a great deal of money
and not a lot of time, we will put them
into a very concentrated training. And
vice versa, people who have more time
than money, they'll go into digital
training.
>> So, how about what's you what would you
say would be the number one skill or the
number one thing people should do to
change the outcome of what they want to
change
>> when the reason I struggle with this is
because I would argue that most people
don't know what outcome they want.
>> I would argue that most people think
they want something, but they haven't
thought it through. So, they don't
really know.
And when you tell them to take certain
actions,
>> they'll take the action, they'll start
to see progress, and then they might
realize, well, that's not really what I
wanted in the first place. So now I've
got to kind of
>> right,
>> I've got to go back and change myself.
So what I often try to tell people first
is that
whatever you think you want, there's a
good chance that you're not self-aware
enough to even identify correctly the
outcome that you desire. You're still
living in some some echo chamber of what
you were taught, of what you were
conditioned to believe that you need to
be. Do you actually need to be happily
married? Or is that just something that
you believe because your mom and your
grandmother told you that? Do you
actually believe that you need to have
kids? Do you believe that you need to be
a mom or do you actually want to be a
mom? I'll tell you this, I've had so
many female clients and they did not
ever actually want to be mothers.
They're mothers now and they're very
good mothers and they're loving mothers
and they're dedicated mothers,
>> right?
>> But they didn't make that choice on
their own before.
>> Well, you Yeah, because you said
something earlier that's so accurate, I
think, is that so much of it, a lot of
how we live our lives is because we're
programmed to live our lives that way.